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AVA DuVERNAY - Her New Series Shows How The Criminal Justice System Robbed Five Boys of Their "Personhood"

Posted By Peggy Jo Abraham, Tuesday, July 9, 2019

Most everyone would agree that Ava DuVernay writes, directs and produces very important projects. Yet when you talk to this extraordinary talent, she won’t go so far as to call her subject matter “important.” DuVernay prefers to categorize her body of work as a reflection of what interests her, what she personally cares about. Entertaining audiences is not enough. She won’t, as she puts it, “spend time making things I don’t believe in.”

One thing DuVernay definitely believes in is candidly confronting a criminal justice system she feels has “disrupted black lives.” In contrast to what we see and read about in the news, her work personalizes the issues in a very intimate way.

For her latest project, a four-part miniseries on Netflix called When They See Us, DuVernay takes a shameful page out of history. She chronicles the lives of five young Black and Hispanic teens wrongfully convicted of raping a jogger in New York’s Central Park in 1989. Although most people know of this story and how it ends, DuVernay delivers a compelling, compassionate portrait of who these boys actually were. She does that through the lens of their families—who, contrary to initial media reports—were very involved in their childrens’s lives. The crushing pain of watching mothers endure the agony of a criminal justice system that’s stacked against their boys in every way makes for a truly visceral viewing experience.

When They See Us is the third part of a triptych. DuVernay’s 2012 film Middle of Nowhere debuted at Sundance, where she became the first African American woman to win the Best Director prize. That movie centered on families of the incarcerated. Her documentary 13th took ideas about the criminal justice system and gave them historical, political and cultural context. DuVernay says When They See Us is a marriage of the two, in that it’s designed to speak about families and address the system as a whole.

While it is disturbing to focus on the social injustice so prevalent today, we can be grateful that this is what Ava DuVernay personally cares about. Through her heartfelt storytelling, she encourages us to face the problems and search for solutions, no matter how painful.

This is the 30th anniversary of the EVENTS you depict in your powerful new miniseries, When They See Us. Were you timing its release to coincide with this or had the project just been on your radar?

I really wanted to make the 30th anniversary. As a producer, it was challenging to try to hit that exact date based on when we began our work, but I did want to make sure that we came out this year and as close to the date as possible. So the moment when we dropped the trailer on the exact date of the actual assault in the park was a big triumph for me and for the men involved. They wanted to commemorate the day that their lives changed forever with a different event. They wanted to reclaim that date. And we did.

Can you talk a bit about the title?

We had been using the working title of Central Park Five throughout preproduction, principal photography and most of post. But I knew in the back of my mind that I wanted to change it. I feel like “Central Park Five” was the moniker that was given to them by the press, by powers that be, to group them together and in some ways strip them of their humanity. It’s used as a political term and it’s inflammatory. When you say that, people have all kinds of connotations or associations as to what it is and who they are or aren’t. And I wanted to make sure that this four-part film reclaimed their lives cinematically, and it does that from the very beginning when you hear the title. There’s a lot of brand equity in that first title, but I just felt so strongly that it wasn’t right for the story we were telling.

That’s so true. It is a story that DEALS WITH many aspects of these kids’ lives.

It’s representative of many parts of their lives and their families’ lives. For example, as a mother of non-Black boys, you may watch this and hopefully think it’s just an isolated story about the Central Park Five case. But this series is about family, about community, about personhood interrupted. This is about a lot of things in our culture beyond just that case.

It would have been easy to think these boys came from broken homes and really difficult situations. Yet all of them seem to have very strong familial bonds, which were portrayed in such a touching way.

I hope it speaks to that fact that whenever you see a black or a brown person being paraded across the news or being characterized in movies as criminal and as not a whole person, you are ignoring who they are. And ultimately you’re ignoring their community, their culture, their very personhood.


Ava DuVernay with Vera Farmiga, who portrays lead prosecutor Elizabeth Lederer

You were just a teenager at the time of the crime. But do you remember being very aware of the incident and the coverage?

Very aware, very aware. I wanted to go to UCLA to study broadcast journalism and ended up being an English Lit major, but with a real interest in news. But the reason why this case caught my attention was because the boys were very close to my age. And there was a word that I didn’t understand in the news called “wilding.” And I thought I was a hip teenager and was like, “Is this a new slang term that I don’t know?” So I called my cousin in New York and I said, “What’s wilding? Is this a New York thing? What does it mean?” And he said, “It doesn’t mean anything. It’s not a word that we use. I think they mean wilin’, wilin’ out,” which was slang at that time. It meant we’re just hanging out. The fact that “wilin’ out” became “wilding,” became “wolf pack,” became “animalistic criminals” really had an effect on me because for the first time, I realized the news can be incorrect, that this is not something I can blindly trust. And I really recall that moment, because I was so focused on pursuing news as a career at the time, so the case was really formative for me in that way.

Did the wronged men actually contribute to the show? Were you involved with them when you were writing it?

Yes. They were my guiding stars on this. I became very close to them, and we’re still very close. I interviewed them with their families, sat in their homes, broke bread and had meals with them over a four-year period. They were on the set quite a bit and literally there with their actors, particularly Korey Wise, who still lives in New York. The actor (Jharrel Jerome, who plays Wise) came to me and said, “Ava, can Korey come to set today? I have a tough scene.” He just wanted to feel his presence and be near him. So we worked very closely with them, the whole writers’ room. We brought them out to LA and they sat with the writers for several days.

So this story was truly their story?

Yes. I was adamant that this not be culled solely from press clippings and archives, that this was them finally being able to amplify their voices, which they had not been able to do. Even in their trial, they were defending against a lie. Even in their confession, they were coerced to say what they said. So you never really got the moment where they told you how they felt about what was happening, what was going on behind closed doors from their perspective.


DuVernay and Jharrel Jerome, who plays wrongly accused teen Korey Wise 

And what about the rape victim, jogger Trisha Meili? Did you have any contact with her?

I reached out to everyone depicted and said, “I’m telling a story. You’re going to be in it. And I would love to sit down with you to learn more about you and your experience.” And I sat down with everyone who wanted to, and I didn’t with the people who didn’t want to. She declined to be interviewed by me, so most of what I used came from her book—little things like what she would listen to on the radio or her jogging habits. The book was basically my guideline. And then I interviewed people who knew her and was able to get a little bit more.

I read that Matias Reyes, the real rapist, continued to commit crimes after the 1989 incident and that one of the accused men calls that the real tragedy—the one that’s never talked about. Is that true?

Yes, Reyes did go on to murder a woman and commit several other rapes, all of which he admitted to. But that could have been prevented if justice had been pursued, truly pursued, that night. He’s walking around the park in bloody clothes. The boys don’t know what they’re saying. They don’t know where they’re supposed to be. People are feeding them their “facts.” I mean, it’s clearly not them. And yet you have to solve this case, and it’s a big media storm, and there are political objectives, and you let the real guy go back into society to rape and kill more people. So that’s what happened.

I remember Trump’s connection to the case—hiS calling publicly for the return of the death penalty. Was there any hesitation on your part about using the Trump footage now that he’s President?

No. It was an early decision that I made, and there was a lot of thought about how to handle him. But if I stay true to my kind-of North Star, which is to tell the story of the men, that allowed me not to veer off into other things. You could easily have had someone playing Trump and had a whole part of the story around that. But I made the decision at the beginning that this needed to be told through the boys’ perspectives and through their families’ perspectives. At the time they weren’t really aware of Trump. They’re young black boys, and all they thought was he was a rich guy in New York, which is all he was. And they were going through their own pain and didn’t really understand the depth of what calling for the death penalty meant for them.

When you think about wrongful convictions and the killings of young blacks, you realize they’re still so prevalent today. In some ways, it feels like not much has changed. In your opinion, what’s missing? What will it take to tackle these issues?

Well, we’re just putting Band-Aids on a systemic problem. So until you change the system, nothing is really going to change. We need to look at the criminal justice system in this country and rebuild it. We need to look at what prisons were historically meant to do, which was to create a substitute for slavery. We need to look at the ways in which we’re stripping rights from people who are incarcerated. We need to look at the fact that 93% of the people who are currently in jail never had a trial. Yet we say we live in a just country.

So I feel like everything is a Band-Aid until there’s a real interrogation and a dismantling and rebuilding of the criminal justice system in this country. And that is a long shot, because too many people benefit from it.


DuVernay directs a courtroom scene from When They See Us

You clearly demonstrated in your documentary, 13th, how so many people profit from the incarceration process. AND wow, 93% of inmates never went to trial. That’s a staggering statistic.

That’s because part of the whole mechanism of our criminal justice system is pleading. You take the plea. You take the deal. That’s there because you don’t want everyone going to trial. If everyone went to trial, it would burden the system, and you wouldn’t be able to get through all the cases. But this creates an imbalance and a bias. People who can’t properly defend themselves end up in jail.

You have your finger on the pulse of so many social and political issues. Why, as a filmmaker, do you feel it’s important to speak out in this way?

I don’t feel like that has to be the case for anyone else. But for me, the stories that I want to tell and that I want to put out in the world with my name on, I want them to do more. So that’s how I choose what I’m doing. And if what it does is get people to think about themselves and think about motherhood or family or the criminal justice system, or whatever, that’s just a cherry on top.

You’ve worked a lot with Oprah. You have an existing show on OWN TV, a new anthology series called Cherish the Day, and she’s a producer on When They See Us. Is it your similar sensibilities that make for an easy collaboration? What is that connection with her?

We have the same feeling about the work—that art can be transformative, that art can contribute to the culture beyond entrainment, that it can also help shape identity ideas and empathy. And so that core piece of the puzzle is a big connection that we have. She’s a wonderful, creative producer. She can read a script and tell me “This works,” “You lost me here,” “I cried here,” “What do you think about this?” And in terms of casting, she has a great sense of people. She’s interviewed more people than anyone else, so she really can look in someone’s eyes and say, “I can feel them” or, “This is a person I can see that they’re going to be able to portray.” And she’s just a great sounding board in that way.

you pay it forward in many ways. Are you still working with the Evolve Fund, the partnership between the city of LA and the entertainment industry?

Yes I am, through Array Alliance, a nonprofit. Array is a series of companies  I’ve had over the last 10 years. Through the nonprofit, we’re involved with a lot of educational initiatives to develop audience around work by women and people of color. We joined forces with the mayor’s office and the Evolve Fund to create curriculum and programming for high school and college students to help them enter our industry and transform it from the ground up. So that was an initiative, and I was in the inaugural program that we launched last year. I’m really excited about its success and its future.


Producing When They See Us was a challenge on many levels. Until now, no one has ever heard the story from the perspective of the five boys who were wrongly accused. And while the rape and trial received a huge amount of media coverage—as producer Jonathan King points out—“The subsequent exoneration got much less attention, to the point that so many people still don’t know the truth.” We spoke to three of the series’ executive producers about what they hope audiences will take away from the emotional drama.

Berry Welsh

There was a moment in prep where Jane, Jonathan and I were sitting with Ava in her office, and Jonathan said something that became a kind of mantra for the show: “When they say ‘boys will be boys,’ they aren’t talking about these boys.” It was an observation about the loss of innocence that touches on every part of the series. You become so emotionally invested in the boys and their families, but their stories also challenge you to think beyond what you know as your own experience.

Jonathan King

One of the most important ideas When They See Us humanizes is that incarceration affects families and communities, not just the person doing time. And the effects don’t stop upon release. A criminal record stays with a person and impacts their ability to restart their life after release. It’s especially pernicious when a person has been wrongfully convicted, but it applies to all people caught up in the system.

Jane Rosenthal

There are human consequences to the system’s failures, and that hasn’t changed. The power of storytelling is that we can take a dark part of our history, and Ava’s vision turns it into something ultimately uplifting that can bring about social change. The benefit of having a creative partner like Netflix is that we can reach the largest possible audience and amplify the message.


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2019 Produced By Conference Recap

Posted By Administration, Tuesday, June 11, 2019

The PGA’s 11th annual Produced By Conference was a full-blown hit as more than 1,000 attendees packed the two-day conference both Saturday and Sunday, June 8-9 at Warner Bros. Studios. The event featured engaging conversations from producers and prominent entertainment figures across film, television, and new media including Mindy Kaling, Nancy Meyers, Toby Emmerich, Peter Roth, Michael Douglas, Danny Devito, Jeffrey Katzenberg, Meg Whitman, Marci Wiseman, Michael B. Jordan, Shivani Rawat and Ian Cooper.

Compelling panels and conversations covered a wide range of the hottest trends in entertainment—from the new age of horror, to the power of podcasts, creating content with a conscience and representation for everyone.

In addition to panels, a record number of attendees (600) actively took part in the Producers Mashup, a one-of-a-kind event that gives them the chance to speak directly with top producers including Matt Weiner and Gary Goetzman, in addition to innovative executives like Justin Falvey of Amblin Television and Sasha Silver of Hulu.

Below are highlights from the panels and conversations.

Day One highlights include:

  • Michael B. Jordan spoke about the personal responsibility of choosing socially conscious projects among content creators. “Starting in front of the camera, from the actor’s perspective, it’s all about the heart. It’s about wanting to create bodies of work and tell stories that will make people go home and think thoughts that will weigh heavily on their heart.
  • In a packed session, Mindy Kaling and Nancy Meyers discussed their shared experience as female leaders in the industry. In an empowering session, Kaling said, “I feel honored that I am sitting here on this stage with you in the room. Female filmmakers can point to the PGA and say it can be done.” Nancy encouraged producers to have a strong will and persevere.
  •  Danny DeVito sat down with long-time collaborator Michael Douglas where they reflected on almost 50 years of friendship, working on projects together and the humanity that producers must bring to filmmaking. DeVito said, “It is friendship, it is relationships. It’s all about keeping in touch and being with people you care about.” Douglas also reflected on the #MeToo movement saying, “This #MeToo movement has been phenomenal in bringing women into our industry more than ever before.” Douglas continued, “We know there have been some mistakes by a lot of people or some people but I don’t think it’s a large population. I do feel that it’s important to remember we all mutually love this process and to be kind to each other.”
  • In one of the most-anticipated sessions of the day, Jeffrey Katzenberg and Meg Whitman, the founders of the yet-to-be-launched streaming service Quibi, shared for the first time many new details concerning their audacious new content service, including:

o   The service will launch on April 6, 2020.

o   They will be releasing 7,000 pieces of content in one year.

o   Quibi will publish 25 pieces of content every day.

o   It will cost $4.99/ month (with ads).

o   They have deals in place with directors Steven Soderberg and Antoine Fuqua.

  • Toby Emmerich and Peter Roth participated in a lively discussion where they touched on Warner Bros. approach to making DC films; the cancellation of Whiskey Cavalier, with Peter Roth hinting that it might not be the show’s last hurrah - “So it ain’t over yet.” When asked about Disney’s acquisition of Fox and what it means for Warner Bros., Emmerich said, “I’m jealous, because they're going to be number one for the foreseeable future. However, he added, “I do think it creates the opportunity for us to take measured risks with films that maybe they wouldn't see us the theatrical opportunities that we will.”
  • In the Keys to the Kingdom panel Mark Gill, commented on the growing tensions between China and U.S. by saying, “Up until about two days before Cannes I would’ve said China was extremely important and then our president opened his mouth again and basically scared away the Chinese for the moment. I’m hopeful that doesn’t last for a long time…. it is absolutely true that without China we’re all in big, big trouble so I’m hopeful that we can all come to our senses and see that we get more from joining up than fighting each other.”


Day Two highlights include: 

  • At one of the most anticipated panels of the weekend, Ava DuVernay and the producers of Netflix’s When They See Us gave the audience an inside look into the series that was four years in the making. Speaking about the meticulous research that went into the project, DuVernay said they obtained numerous official police records and transcripts. But she noted other material came from people who “wanted us to know things. There were things that came to us anonymously, envelopes that were slipped to us.” 
    Ava stressed to producers in the audience the importance of every project they’re working on now and how critical it is to view them as stepping stones to future endeavors. She said, “I wish someone had said to me in the harder times this is going to mean something to you later, this is going to matter.”
  • During the Future of Producing, panelists shared their insights on how streaming has led to more diverse content. Lesyle Headland shared, “When you look at something like streaming, you are actually getting those marginalized voices—female filmakers of color or a gay filmmaker for example that maybe can’t and don’t have the same access out in front of the world.” In addition, the panelists echoed the importance of taking care of their cast and crew’s emotional needs on set, giving the example of using an intimacy coordinator to ensure safety and comfort during sensitive scenes.
  • PGA President Lucy Fisher moderated Representation For Everyone: Why It Makes Sense Now More Than Ever. Fisher encouraged producers to take responsibility and pride in bringing new voices to the table saying, “We have to own these problems. We can make the biggest difference; we can find the people that we don’t know.” Tricia Melton added, “I do think culture is driving this and it is moving fast. Culture [moves] quickly because [these stories are becoming] personal. And to me, that’s the power that we have in our industry: to make it personal.”
  • In one of the most unique sessions of the conference, six aspiring producers had an incredible opportunity to pitch their projects to high-level decision makers, including Gail Berman, Mike Farrah, Barry Jossen and James Lopez. The panelists gave in-the-moment feedback, an experience virtually unheard of in this industry.
  • Top buyers of streaming content at Disney+, Hulu, Amazon, and EPIX shared insights into their future plans to a packed audience. Discussing what viewers can expect from the upcoming Disney+ streaming service, SVP Agnes Chu hinted that content will be family friendly and that Marvel will lead the way with several superhero spin-off series.

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An Itch For Twitch - Welcome To The Brave New World of Producing

Posted By Chris Thomes, Monday, May 6, 2019

Consumers have shifted their viewing to interactive devices (iPad/iPhone, Xbox, PS4, PC), and now creators are free of many of the limitations of broadcast television. But few traditional producers have taken advantage of this fact. Those who have are typically native to these new platforms, and they operate in a world that is as much about participation as it is about watching.

Acronyms, pixelated faces and cryptic icons fly past, almost faster than you can read. Symbolic “emotes” flood the screen as viewers react to a big moment—from excited to shocked, heartbroken to overjoyed. It’s a live chat, flowing like a river of alien symbols. A conversation like this is the backbone of one of the most popular live streamingvideoplatforms on earth. Its focus is primarily onvideo gamelive streaming, but it also includes broadcasts ofesportscompetitions, music, “in real life” streams, and most recently, scripted “TV” programming.

This is Twitch.

Its scale is extraordinary. As early as February 2014, it was already considered the fourth-largest source of peak internet traffic in the United States. By May 2018, it had 2.2 million broadcasters monthly and 15 million daily active users, with around a million average concurrent users on 27,000 Twitch partner channels.

The core draw for viewers is an insatiable desire to watch others with similar interests play games, engage in unique interplay with other viewers and users, boo or cheer the gamers and … simply hang out to chat. Twitch viewers post more than300 messages per second,and while a lot of it may appear rather meaningless and trivial under all those layers of almost indecipherable noise and emotes, there is definitely meaning.

While this “meaning” may not be immediately understood by the average person, it’s not difficult to recognize that it is simply about connection. A community is thriving on Twitch. Players have something in common and a place that enables them to celebrate it. That’s the beauty of the platform—large-scale enablement of participatory entertainment. It embraces interactivity and innovation on formats that television simply cannot accommodate, and it acknowledges the viewer, and engages them real time.

It also helps that streamers are encouraged to create content by being monetarily compensated in various ways. The breakdown goes like this:

- If streamers manage to get 50 followers, they get a percentage of the pre-roll ads that Twitch runs in the live stream.

- Viewers can also choose to subscribe to their favorite Twitch streamers. This supports streamers financially, but also gives the subscriber perks like special chat emojis and badges for use in chat rooms, as well as the ability to watch the stream without any Twitch advertisements. Subscriptions have typically cost between $5 and $25 a month depending on how many features the viewer can access. That money is split between the streamer and Twitch. 

Viewers can also spend money on bits, which are basically animated cheering points they can lavish on the streamer. Bits serve as currency as well. When viewers cheer with their purchased bits, the streamer gets a cut of what viewers spent on them.

- Viewers can also simply donate directly to the streamer, which eliminates having to give Twitch a cut.

- Lastly, streamers can get a cut of affiliate sales by posting links to online retailers and encouraging viewers to buy.

Having a popular channel and maintaining enough of an audience to make money is not easy, though. Although Twitch is a unique platform and format, the tenets of content creation and distribution are strikingly similar to those of traditional television. They require that one have a strong, understandable brand and voice, be engaging, maintain quality, have a consistent schedule and use marketing to reach new viewers.

Because these are all the table-stake rules of engagement for the traditional TV business, one would expect studios to be knocking down Twitch’s door. But they just aren’t—yet. While the Netflix-savvy production world is embracing new streaming platform distribution approaches, the show formats are almost exactly the same as traditional TV. Each episode is the same length, and each season has the same episode order. Because they maintain this consistency in user experience and often rely on foreign sales to traditional TV outlets, the major online distributors are not positioned to embrace new expressions of video storytelling that don’t look and feel exactly like TV.

Bernie Su is Twitch's first exclusive scripted content producer.
His show, Artificial, lets viewers interact directly with characters

One producer who has jumped into and embraced the multiformat Twitch-verse is Bernie Su. He is no stranger to radical formats. In fact, two of his previous shows, The Lizzie Bennet Diaries and Emma Approved, won Emmys for excellence in interactive media. His latest effort, Artificial, is a scripted sci-fi series that is the first-ever Twitch show where the viewing audience can interact directly with characters while the show is on. Episodes of the show air live, with actors in front of the camera in real time, acting and reacting to audience input via questions and polls. Viewers literally change the story by voting.

While Twitch did not finance Artificial, it did get behind it promotionally, hoping that would signal a new kind of programming and bridge the divide between Hollywood and gamers. With more than half of Twitch users spending over 20 hours a week streaming content on the platform, there is very little time for them to watch traditional TV. Su rose to the challenge, though, and decided to tackle this niche audience head-on.

“The younger generation (the millennials and the Z’s) are watching less and less traditional TV,” explains Su. “So I’m taking the initiative to produce and tell stories on platforms and formats where they are. These viewers have never known a world without the internet or without a smartphone. It’s how they experience their stories.”

Su says that for this finicky demographic, participatory programming is right on target. “The storyteller in me is on a mission to design story experiences where the audience is part of the story, where they are consequential. They’re on the journey with the characters and affect the narrative canon. We grew up watching Luke Skywalker defeat the Empire. Now we want to help Luke defeat the empire.”

The show aligns scripted narrative with interactivity that gamers expect, and it does so by leveraging a variety of Twitch’s unique features. In fact, when Su developed Artificial for Twitch, he made sure it was a proprietary experience. “Being live is just step one, and almost every platform does live and does it well, but they do not have the chat system, the bit/token system, the extension system, and the APIs that Twitch has and that we use for Artificial. If you moved the series to a different platform, we would have to rethink and redesign a lot of our tech and methods. Artificial in its current form could only be done on Twitch.”

The method achieves more than simply allowing gamers to influence the story. The experience of watching and participating in Artificial taps into viewer values that Twitch has forged in its core—community and connection. And that might be the key to helping Twitch diversify its content offerings. Artificial provides a very different type of content for Twitch viewers, but it still utilizes the community features that they’re used to—features that keep them coming back.

From a production standpoint, Artificial is almost like live theater, with key pivot points allowing for variations suggested by the audience. Keen to stay within budget constraints, Su avoids improvisation in the production. “One thing a lot of people misconstrue about our series is that there’s a lot of improv,” he says. “There is actually nearly no improv in our show. Every line of dialogue you hear the actors say is scripted somewhere. Now, it may be on a screen or a printed page or a vocal call, but it is definitely scripted.

"What were doing is building audience responses into our scripts. We know we have a story we want to tell. We know our narrative points. But we do have a lot of variables and branches, and its not until the audience locks us into something that we actually we commit.

That audience influence is critical to engagement on Twitch, no matter what they are watching. Even Twitch’s cofounder, Kevin Lin, has said that people tune into Twitch for a “participatory experience” and enjoy talking to each other while videos are streamed live and then discussing what happened afterward. Like the water cooler conversation after one’s favorite traditional drama series, the Twitch community savors interacting with each other as they banter, pontificate, debate and even give each other a hard time if someone is playing poorly. The difference between interactive and participatory is blurred in this hyperactive world, but as Su explains, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. “Interactive is where the user/viewer has some ability to control the narrative. Participatory is where the user is working with the character and, ideally, other audience members. I consider Artificial to be both.”

While it seems Artificial has everything it needs to satisfy even the most picky Twitch viewer, it remains to be seen whether Twitch’s users will fully embrace nongaming content. They are on Twitch to watch and talk about games. Expecting them to welcome broader programming may be more than they want or are willing to accept.

Other platforms including Facebook and Netflix are also exploring more ways audiences can interact with shows. For example, Netflix recently produced and distributed Black Mirror: Bandersnatch, a new, interactive, choose-your-own-adventure movie that ties into the Black Mirror universe. While it taps into a popular intellectual property and has the weight of Netflix’s custom platform enhancements behind it, it is asking viewers to consume content in a whole new way. But Su is emboldened by that effort and says of the Bandersnatch premiere, “I was incredibly excited. I’m happy to see Bandersnatch and Netflix really push interactive into the mainstream. The choose-your-own-adventure style is familiar to a lot of viewers, just not in video. And in an instant, Netflix made that mainstream with a very well-executed piece. It’s not what we’re doing with Artificial, which is the audience as a whole influencing the direction, but anything that elevates interactive is great for all of us.”

The rest of the studios may need to get on board with Su. In a disrupted landscape where there are more TV platforms and programming than ever before, but where ratings are dropping for live viewing, platforms like Twitch could offer safe harbor for creative producers. Shows like Artificial give appointment viewing a completely unique experience. Programs like it could change the very meaning of live viewing and turn disruption into opportunity.

But with opportunity comes risk. For many producers, shifting from linear to interactive storytelling could seem like a steep hill to climb. Learning all of Twitch’s feature sets, chat system, bit/token system, and APIs could, for some, be a big barrier to entry. We could be in a world where there is no looking back, though, and Twitch may be the new anchor tenant of a participatory storytelling future. Its 15 million active users a day make that argument pretty compelling. Producers like Bernie Su can’t imagine telling stories any other way.

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ZEN and the Art of Showrunning - Chris Brancato Is a Hot Property Who Knows How To Keep His Cool

Posted By Sarah Sanders, Tuesday, April 30, 2019

Im a little intimidated as I wait to meet Chris Brancato in his Greenpoint office. The room is large and full of sunlight, with a striking view of the New York City skyline visible over warehouse rooftops, and Im not quite sure what to expect from the man best known for co-creating the gritty Netflix crime drama Narcos. His desk is topped with a nameplate that reads DO EPIC SHIT, and his bookshelf is full of books including the World Encyclopedia of Organized Crime, The Autobiography of Malcolm X and Gangsters of Harlem.

As soon as Brancato walks in, though, I am put at ease by his warm handshake and eagerness to talk about his work. The books are there for research on his current show, the Epix series Godfather of Harlem, set to premiere this fall. Brancato and his team are hard at work on postproduction, and his passion for the show is palpable and contagious.

“At the very beginning, Godfather of Harlem suggests a tradition of gangster dramas,” he says, but it’s made with an angle that “makes it feel just a little bit different than any mob show you’ve ever seen,” even as it draws inspiration from classics like Goodfellas and The Godfather. The series, which is inspired by true events, revolves around crime boss Bumpy Johnson, played by Forest Whitaker, and his friendship with Malcolm X.

“The initial concept of the show—the vision—was: This is about the collision of the criminal underworld and the civil rights movement in early ’60s Harlem. Those two things, criminal underworld and civil rights, usually don’t go in the same sentence,” he says. This collision, in addition to making for a compelling pitch to network executives, allows Brancato and the team to explore themes that are not only historically significant, but also resonant today.

Brancato and Forest Whitaker on the set of Godfather of Harlem.
Whitaker stars as crime boss Bumpy Johnson.

Brancato with Chazz Palminteri, who portrays the character
known as Bonano.

Brancato with Giancarlo Esposito who plays Adam Clayton Powell Jr.

“How do we use this friendship to create an examination of civil rights?” he asks, explaining that Godfather of Harlem sets out to look at the tropes of the traditional mob show through the “prism of crime” as a method of social mobility. “That’s what the show really is,” Brancato says. “It’s an examination of how different social groups—Italian, Black, German, Irish—move through an economic ladder to political, social, cultural significance.”

The show also draws many implicit parallels between events of the 1960s and current news. “We’re not trying to be on the nose about it, but we’re just simply depicting stuff that happened then that hasn’t changed all that much,” Brancato explains. He names a few of those issues: “An opioid crisis of immense proportions. A political divide in this country between right and left. Fight for political representation. Police brutality. The beginning of a social movement that’s similar to Black Lives Matter, in terms of not only the civil rights movement, but specific protests against violence against Black kids in Harlem. So what we have is a show that’s making a commentary about a lot of stuff that we’re dealing with today, but has the safe remove of distance.”

When Brancato invites me into one of several editing rooms, I watch as he works with an editor to fine-tune a clip of an interaction between Bumpy Johnson and Congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr. (played by Giancarlo Esposito). The few seconds I see are of a conversation about tenant rights and money in politics—topics that are as relevant as ever in New York City.

This kind of analysis comes naturally to Brancato, who studied history at Brown University. “I was a history major in college, so research and using research to support writing has always been part and parcel of my development as a writer,” he says. For Godfather of Harlem, Brancato and his team read a lot and conducted interviews with people in Harlem who knew the real Bumpy Johnson. The writing process for Brancato is “a combination of researched historiography, interviews with some of the players or people who knew the players, and the requirements of dramatic scene construction.” He adds, however, that it took him awhile in his career to come to projects and subjects that let him do this kind of work.

When I ask if being a showrunner was always his ultimate destination in the industry, Brancato laughs. Well my ultimate destination in this business was trying to make a living and put food on the table. When he first came to Hollywood in the 90s, he most wanted to work on feature films, as television wasnt known for the kind of excellence it is today. But in an effort to get whatever work he could, he pursued jobs in both film and television. He gradually learned more about the role of the showrunner, which did not have the kind of visibility it does now, and was drawn to the combination of writing and producing that the job involves. Youre actually really in charge of a massive endeavor, he says. Not just a two-hour movie, but a multiple-hour show, and youre the creative arbiter of the final product as much as the feature film director is arbiter of the final product in feature.

So Brancato decided to focus on showrunning for both artistic and pragmatic reasons. “I was trying to ensure my own longevity in the business,” he says, by pursuing a position where he thought there would be more job opportunities. “And then what happened, somewhat through dumb luck, is that feature films became $200 million tentpoles, and television—because of the technological advances and the streaming services and the multiplicity of channels—television suddenly became the place where you were making interesting, deep, character-exploration stuff.

“And so my decision to focus on showrunning turned out to be a good one creatively,” he says. (Actually, Brancato is no stranger to film. His writing credits include such features as 1997’sHoodlumand the upcomingSherlock Holmes 3, starring Robert Downey Jr.)

At this point in his career, Brancato seems confident in his understanding of showrunning. “When people ask me what it is at its core, I say it’s a benevolent dictatorship. There does have to be a decider, a person who’s weighing choices and trying to have the rhythm and the music of the show in their head … And, well, I created the show, or I co-created it, so I guess I’m the decider. I decide what sounds discordant or what sounds in harmony. And that’s a subjective judgment. I’m not always right.”

Brancato explains that for him, showrunning has four components: script development, preproduction, production and postproduction. In a typical day, he will be involved in all four of those at once—by, for example, giving notes on postproduction editing for one episode, visiting the set as another is shot, and rewriting the script for the one that’s shooting the next day. “You’re besieged at all times by questions and problems from all aspects,” he says. Rather than getting overwhelmed by the multitude of problems, though, Brancato insists that another crucial aspect of showrunning is remaining calm, understanding that problems are foundational to the job. “I realize the job is problems. The job is a never-ending succession of creative questions, problems, challenges to be solved. And if you get yourself emotional about the never-ending avalanche of problems, you’re not gonna be able to do the job well. So you have to try to maintain a zen-like calm most of the time.”

Those managerial responsibilities fall into the producing side of the showrunning, while the artistic decisions are also informed by the writing side. “There’s two different heads you wear as a showrunner. One is a writer head: introspective, interior, quiet, mousy. The other is producer: aggressive, tough, decisive. So you have to balance those.” 

While Brancato acknowledges that wearing both of those hats is a lot of work (and not for everybody), he also stresses the importance of delegating and speaks glowingly of his colleagues. “You’re hiring experts, all of whom are more talented at their respective fields than you are, and you’re trying to convey to them the vision of what the show is, what it looks like, with an allowance for them to add their own expertise, their own ideas, to push the boundaries of how you see your show—and then to accomplish it together, in collaboration.” Brancato believes it is important to trust his own gut instincts, while also allowing for his vision to be expanded by collaborators, whether they’re department heads or other writers. 

“Building a writing staff is always about finding component parts who do things as a writer better than you, so that you are supporting your own weaknesses,” he explains. Nothing makes him happier than reading a draft of a script from a writer and thinking, “Oh my God, they write the show better than I do!” he says with a smile. “That feeling does not inspire fear and jealousy. It inspires, how can I make that writer more comfortable? Can I give them an all-expenses-paid weekend away?” Again, that response comes from practicality as well as artistic generosity: a draft of a script that he thinks is excellent that can also be shot is good for the show as a whole.

Brancato’s balance of creative vision and pragmatism is maybe most apparent in his approach to pitching a series to networks. Here he is adamant that just having a good idea isn’t enough to actually get a show on the air. While the multiplicity of channels and sheer number of interesting shows available could make it seem like it’s easy to sell a good series in today’s “golden age” of television, Brancato insists that notion is false. “It’s actually harder to sell a series and get it on the air perhaps than it’s ever been,” he says. “Every executive—and I’ve grown up with most of these people over the last 30 years—has heard every pitch, in every incarnation. There’s almost no pitch you could ever give them that they haven’t heard in some way, shape or form. So how do you get it to on air, as opposed to in development?” The answer, he maintains, is to create a tsunami: a combination of factors, from the concept to the actors and producers involved, that together create something a network executive will not only be excited about, but also afraid to ignore. “The only way to get you [a network executive] to say yes is to make you terrified to say no—to make you worry that your competitor’s going to get that show. It’s not actually just about creating a good idea. It’s about creating that tsunami.”

And Godfather of Harlem did indeed create that perfect storm, bringing the shows unique premise, Forest Whitakers celebrity, and a full script developed by Brancato and Paul Eckstein together into a pitch that the newly appointed Epix president, Michael Wright, agreed to. Its reminding yourself always that it is a team effort, Brancato says of showrunning. You have to have a lot of humility. Youre very lucky to have been granted the money to do the show. Youre lucky to have all these talented people working on it. And now its off to the editing room. After all, Brancatos day is just getting started.

- Feature photography by Noah Fecks
- Set photos courtesy of David Lee/Epix

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NINA YANG BONGIOVI - Producing with Passion and Purpose

Posted By Peggy Jo Abraham, Wednesday, April 24, 2019

Her smile comes readily, but dont be mistakenher mission is dead serious. Nina Yang Bongiovi is a champion of filmmakers and a directors best friend, especially if that director is a woman, a person of color or both. Its definitely a long journey from Taiwan to East L.A., and one could argue its an equally long trek from there to Hollywood success. Bongiovi has navigated these waters with a fearless spirit and razor-sharp instincts, while facing devastating personal setbacks along the way. Both the professional roadblocks and family losses have given her a healthy perspective on her career as a producer. She does not sweat the small stuff now. And recognizing that its all mostly small stuff is, in her mind, a huge gift.

Bongiovi has an uncanny track record when it comes to believing in talent—often first-time or relatively unknown directors. Can you say Ryan Coogler? When she first met the director, he was still in graduate school, and Bongiovi says no one was giving someone like him a shot at success. Today she speaks of the “Coogler effect”—the fact that now so many people are looking for “the next Ryan Coogler.” This makes Bongiovi laugh, but she is also genuinely proud of having been part of that change, where Hollywood is more willing to be open to new, untested filmmakers.

This passionate producer has found the perfect business partner in Forest Whitaker. From an unlikely trip to China togetherwhen the two didnt even know each otherto the formation of their Significant Productions banner, they share an enthusiasm for diversity, in both subject matter and collaborators. Together they have been ahead of the curve, recognizing the need for inclusion before it was commonplace. But as Bongiovi puts it, they operate quietly, helping unknown or struggling filmmakers pursue their dreams.

The unwavering support she offers and the fierce belief in her directors are what set this executive apart. There are producers and there are pillars of strength. Nina Yang Bongiovi is both.


When you first thought about entering the entertainment industry, was producing a goal of yours?

I grew up predominantly in East Los Angeles, and I don’t think any of us were told that you can pursue a career in entertainment and in Hollywood. And even though the proximity is only about 20 miles away, we weren’t afforded that awareness—that you could pursue a producing career. So I would say no.

When I first got into the industry, I was in grad school at USC, and I got a job as an analyst in marketing and media research. Right away I knew this is not what I wanted to do. I wanted to make movies and I wasn’t even close to my goals with this corporate job. I knew by the time I graduated, I needed to make the move into the production realm.

I started as an assistant to an action director in Hong Kong, and then we ended up moving to Shanghai to continue working on films and television shows. So that was my first foray into the world of moviemaking—martial arts/action films.


What made you even consider working in the industry?

I thought I was going to be a journalist at one point. I remember at a very young age my mother said (in Mandarin), “You should be a news anchor.” That’s because when my family immigrated to this country, my mom watched Connie Chung on TV. She thought, “That’s a good choice for you.” It was because Connie was the one Asian American image for us as a family in America. That’s the closest I would say that the “entertainment industry” came into the fold. Fortunately my mom didn’t push me to be a doctor, lawyer or a scientist like what’s most expected from Asian families.


What was your first aha moment, when it dawned on you that you were actually a producer?

Well, I think there are levels of it. There’s the point where you’re thinking, “I need to be a producer. I don’t know what I’m doing but I’m going to do it and figure this out.” That first aha moment was when I was working on the Hong Kong films, and I was always in such awe of the action sequences. And I was like, “Man, the action is so good. If they only had a good script.” [LAUGHS] Then I thought, “I wonder what that process is.” But while I’m there, I’m just breathing in everything because I love the actual production aspects of making a movie. So I was enthralled with everyone’s roles on the crew.


At that point, did you think about becoming a writer and writing your own scripts?

I never thought of myself as a writer. I just thought putting together a project would be so incredibly exciting, but daunting at the same time with not knowing what it takes.


But you thought like a producer. 

Yes, now reflecting back


And you thought it would be a much better movie if it had a good script.

Exactly. But I didn’t have a say in the early development process. I was just an assistant to a director. I was getting tea and heating up soup. I thought if I was a producer, then I would have a say. I could go after projects I wanted to see on screen and put them together. I was very naive at that time, but it was a lofty goal.

Cut to 10 years later is when I really felt I was a producer. So from the time I started as an assistant to a director and then trying to figure out what producing was about, raising money, “producing” random projects here and there, I had never felt I was a real producer. I always felt a bit insecure about what it really takes to make a great film. It was an educational process.

Sometimes I would say I failed for the first 10 years of my career. But friends would tell me, “No. You didn’t. That’s your learning curve.” And it took me quite a while to understand that, but I never gave up on wanting to become a bonafide producer. Fruitvale Station was the first film I felt where I was able to drive something from inception all the way to the end and support an incredible filmmaker, Ryan Coogler, at the same time.


As a producer, what do you see as your main role, your most critical function?

I think the most critical function is to champion the filmmaker, to support the vision of the director that I have chosen to work with, or I have pursued to work with. And I need to do everything in my power to make that vision come through in the most resourceful way possible, balancing art and commerce.


No wonder people want to work with you.



How did you first connect with Forest Whitaker?

I first connected with Forest in 2009. It was an adoption story, a movie that I wanted to produce in China to address racism, prejudice and cultural differences. I didn’t know it was a subject matter that actually appealed to him. I worked with a friend on a spec script that spoke about those issues, about an interracial couple going to China to adopt a Chinese baby. She’s Chinese, he’s black, and it deals with anti-black sentiment and discrimination they faced when they traveled there.

I made an offer to Forest’s agent at WME and thought, “I’m going to make an offer to Forest Whitaker, who just won the Oscar not that long ago. Maybe I’m delusional!”



Yes, bold or blind faith. I submitted an offer backed by a financier, and Forest actually read the script and called me. I was quite intimidated. And he said, “I really love the story and what you’re trying to say here, but the script isn’t strong enough … I can help you.” And I’m thinking, “Who are you?!” I remember saying, “I don’t have the funds to hire another writer. I’m not sure what we can do.” And he told me, “I have a couple friends who are top screenwriters, and I’ll see if one of them is interested in supporting the project.” During that time he asked me when I was going back to China, and I told him I would be going back soon.


I read that was because you were dealing with some family issues.

Yes. My mom passed away, and then a year later my sister also passed away. It was a very dark time for me, so I was really going to see my family. My brothers were there. My dad was there. I was pretending that I was going to do work and research, but actually I was really depressed. And Forest says, “I’ll come with you.” And I’m like, “OK” and in my head, “Yikes.”


And didnt that blow you away?

Yes. It blew me away because I’m thinking he’s an A-list star who won the Academy Award for The Last King of Scotland. And he’s helping me with a story that I want to tell.


He obviously believed in the story.

He believed in the purpose. Thinking about it, every movie we’ve produced to date possesses a certain statement about race, culture and class. And so now it doesn’t surprise me, but at that time I was thinking, “What is happening?” And I actually thought, maybe my mom and my sister sent me an angel to help me in my career that I was so down about, because I felt like I was failing on so many levels.

Nina Bongiovi and Lakeith Stanfield on the set of Sorry to Bother You, winner of an independent Spirit Award.

So he didn
t know at all about what had transpired with your family before you got there?

No, not until we got to China. We spent some time together and I talked about it. And I think he’s so intuitive that he probably knew I was clinically depressed. He had a lot of empathy, but he didn’t feel sorry for me. It was more like he understood because he’s a very spiritual man. And then he also got to spend time with my dad and a couple of my childhood friends.

And what’s great is, when we went to Shanghai, many friends from my early production days resided there. And they said, “We got you. You come with Forest. We’ll take care of you. We’ll show him the city. We’ll show him how we work here. We’ll take care of him.”

So Forest was well taken care of by my old team from Hong Kong. And he had a great time. It was kind of scrappy, and I was hoping he didn’t mind, and he didn’t. I didn’t know him well enough then to know that he’s such a kind soul.


But just that he made the offer to come in the first place was some sort of indication of who he was as a person.

Yes. And I think he was very interested in the culture. He hadn’t been to China, and he wanted to see for himself what kind of issues I talked about in the story when it comes to prejudices and discrimination. He wanted to experience what it was like being a black man in China. But everyone was pretty kind to him because he’s Forest Whitaker. [LAUGHS]


Do you think with talk of racism and diversity in the headlines so much, that it makes it easier or harder to put together a film that deals with these topics?

Overall it’s still a struggle to get films and projects starring people of color and/or with directors of color green-lit or financed, especially with certain subject matters. We collectively have to operate at an excellent level when it comes to storytelling, scripts and vision, so if something produced is mediocre, we’re easily categorized as a niche and that niche isn’t worth betting on.

So I think it makes all of us, my peers who are in the same space, hyperconscious of what we have to do to continue to elevate what we produce. Because it’s too easy for the marketplace to say, “Black films don’t travel so it’s worth less. Or, films starring Asian Americans don’t have an audience base, except for Crazy Rich Asians.”


What about some of the recent success stories? Do they make a difference?

They do make a difference. I think of what Crazy Rich Asians has done, as well as Black Panther, Moonlight, Hidden Figures and Get Out, all these wonderful movies … they have paved a wide path in discussions of what’s out there for financiers and studios and networks to back. And I’m getting a lot of calls these days asking, “Do you have any Asian projects in development?” The real test is if folks will buy or fund scripts without the word “rich” in the title or subject matter.

However, what’s positive is that there are more opportunities for sure, where I hear of studios looking for filmmakers of color, making an effort to diversify above-the-line and below-the-line talent, to work with more women and women directors. So you see that shift happening, and it allows us to be in the room to talk about projects. It allows us to send projects to executives who have a keen interest and an initiative in giving diverse story perspectives a shot.


You were actually in the forefront of that with five films and five directors of color, and many of them first-time filmmakers. 

Thank you for saying that, because we’re really proud of it. Forest and I pride ourselves on being inclusive, but we do it quietly. We just produce our movies, and we push them out into the world by any means necessary. Fortunately all five of them launched at Sundance in competition, which is mind-blowing for us, and also catapulted all these wonderful filmmakers’ careers. We are in the forefront of this movement. I feel like we’re pioneers of it because we were champions of diversity at an earlier time, before it was really popular. And there are people coming to us asking, “Would your company adopt an inclusion rider?” And I say, “We’ve been doing that since 2010.” We’re just not loud about it, but everything we do represents inclusion.


Lets talk about Fruitvale Station and how it affected the careers of you and Ryan Coogler.

Going into Fruitvale Station, I had no trajectory. I mean, I wasn’t thinking, “This is the plan. We’re going to make this movie, launch this career and then have Ryan Coogler change the world with Black Panther.” That wasn’t it.

It came purely out of love for filmmakers who don’t have an opportunity to be championed. It was a professor at USC, Jed Dannenbaum (via Jane Kagon) who reached out to me and said, “I have this young man in my class who’s really remarkable.” I still have Jed’s email to me. The full email about Ryan is just beautiful.

So Ryan came into the office, and he was just an old soul, although only 23 at the time. I felt a certain kinship because he’s a kid from Oakland, not privileged enough to have the Hollywood connections. I thought back to myself growing up in La Puente, east of Los Angeles. No one was ever going to give me that opportunity. Ryan left me five short films that he directed in grad school. I watched them in my office and I remember crying at a couple of them, thinking, “These are so damn good.” That’s when I knew he’s a true storyteller. Forest watched them that night, and the next day he came to the office and said, “Tell him to come back in.”

And during that meeting, that’s when Ryan told us about Fruitvale and Forest goes, “Let’s make this movie.” That was the first time I felt like, “I am a producer. I’m going to do this. It’s going to be easy because I’m producing with Forest.” Wrong.

Ryan connected me with Oscar Grant’s (the young African American man whose killing by BART police is the subject of the film) mother, who held his life rights. And that process went on for quite a while because they were going through a civil lawsuit. They couldn’t talk to anybody in “Hollywood” about a movie because it could jeopardize their case.

So we discreetly spoke to her about what it would mean for us to make the film and what it would mean to the community. And there were conversations about building that trust and telling her, “We’re not the type of producers to exploit you. Our purpose is to create dialogue, very important dialogue, that’s seriously needed in this country.”

After about 10 months in, Oscar’s mother, Wanda Johnson, said, “OK, we can continue talking about it.” By then Ryan was out of grad school, and I was still negotiating the life rights. Wanda is a woman of God and many don’t know that at the end of the day she said, “Nina, talk to my church minister and explain to him what this life rights option is. And if he says it’s a go, it’s a go.” And I’m thinking, “Man, that’s a different type of pressure.”

Kenan Coogler, Bongiovi, Michael B. Jordan, Ryan Coogler celebrate at the Cannes Premiere of Fruitvale Station in 2015.

And did you talk with her minister?

I  did, and I remember being very nervous going through the contract with him on the phone, trying not to mess up. It was about 20 pages, and I was going line by line, explaining what everything meant. And at the last page he goes, That sounds great to me. And I had tears in my eyes, thinking I cant believe were getting this. I immediately called Ryan and said, She agreed! Thinking back, it was really funny because that was just the first big hurdle.


Who would have thoughtthe minister?

Yeah. It was an unconventional approach. [LAUGHS] And Im still close with Wanda.


I was wondering about that.

I sit on the board of the Oscar Grant Foundation, and it provides at-risk youths with scholarships in Oakland and educational support; plus Wanda works with coalitions across the country to address social issues.


And the film won the PGAs Stanley Kramer Award, which honors productions that bring to light important social issues.

We were a very intimate movie that was noticed by the PGA, and to honor us with the Stanley Kramer Award was huge for us. It was the film’s energy, love and its purpose that allowed it to flourish and allowed a filmmaker like Ryan Coogler to flourish. It was meant to be his directorial debut. It’s Ryan’s destiny to be this influential today from all his narratives.


Is it true that your biggest investors are old childhood friends of yours? 

Yes, particularly one of them—which means that you fight a lot and argue a lot but then you just go, “You know what? We’re like family so we move on.” It’s very different than working with traditional industry investors. You have to have a strong sense of humor. It came about when Forest and I were trying to make Fruitvale Station. Once we got the life rights option and Ryan started writing the screenplay, I was already in the process of raising funds for the movie.

I reached out to high-net-worth individuals within the U.S. And Forest talked to his connections as well. Every single person we spoke with turned us down. I was told, “Number one, Ryan’s a first-time feature director—it’s too risky. Two, he’s a first-time black director. Three, you have a predomonantly black cast, so that makes it even harder. And lastly, the story is too depressing and no one wants to see that.” We had all the odds stacked against us.

After everybody said no, that’s when I reached out to my childhood friend, Mike Chow, in Shanghai—who was not from the film industry—and I said, “I know you’re doing well in Asia. I hear you guys are all rolling in money over there, killing it. I need your help.” And he’s asks, “What do you need?” I say, “I need a million dollars to make a movie.” He’s a serial investor, so he starts asking me about the projections, ROI, IRR, and I tell him to just trust me and invest in the movie. And he said, “What if it doesn’t work?” And I replied, “If it doesn’t work, see it as philanthropy.”

I couldn’t believe I said that! And he responded, “That’s the worst pitch ever.”


But it worked.

It worked really well, and we still laugh about that terrible pitch.

Fruitvale’s success allowed us to set a mission for Significant Productions: to champion filmmakers of color and shift the paradigm of our business. After that we had Dope, which was a tremendous success with Rick Famuyiwa. Once again the project was challenging because Rick and I went to every studio that he wanted to work with and they all said no. They said no to a movie that to me is so fun, original, and not in the marketplace. I remember telling Rick, “Don’t worry. I’m going to get this funded. Let’s make it independently.” So that’s when I went back to my childhood friends—by now we’d gathered six of them and created a film fund.


Six of your friends?

Yeah, from Asia, Asian Americans, to create a fund to support Dope. Then concurrently we supported Chloé Zhao’s first movie, Songs My Brothers Taught Me. That was the third. The fourth movie was Roxanne Roxanne—a similar situation where it was tough for traditional financiers and studios to take on. But we had a fund so we got it done, and it went on to premiere in Sundance 2017.


Wow. Sundance has been good to you.

They’ve been good to us. They’re magnificent to collaborate with— to give our films and filmmakers a platform for the world to see, because these films are all underdogs. But underdogs that won at the end.


So all of your films have debuted at Sundance?

All of our independents, in competition. Every year they choose 16 films in U.S. Dramatic Competition, 16 out of 13,000+ submissions. So we’re very blessed that all five of them got that platform, and to have fans, distributors and buyers who love what we’ve done.

Bongiovi, A$AP Rocky, Shameik Moore, Mimi Valdes, Quincy Brown at 2013 Dope premiere.

Your 2018 competitor was Sorry to Bother You, directed by Boots Riley. Tell me about that.

I met him in 2015 through SFFilm and I thought, “This guy is cool. He’s different.” He’s an activist, a rapper and a musician. Boots and I kept in touch on his and his producers’ progress in their fundraising efforts, but there were no bites. Years had passed since he had written the first draft of his screenplay in 2010. I was on set in New York during the Summer of 2016, and Boots came to see me. I told him once I finish Roxanne Roxanne, I will take on his film next. I loved his vision but I honestly didn’t know what to do with the material [with financiers] because it was so revolutionary, so unique. That meant I didn’t let my core investors read the script. [LAUGHS]

I was nervous because it’s a very ambitious project to produce independently. But I believed in Boots and so did our amazing cast. I’m thinking, “Either this is going to be genius or it’s going to be a bomb. There is absolutely no middle ground. So let’s do this!” And thank God it’s genius!


Does the personal adversity youve faced have a big effect on your work?

It absolutely does have an effect on my career. Because before my mom and my sister passed away, there was the first seven to eight years of my career where I was unsure of my abilities and was taking things too seriously—and also taking the failures extremely hard. But then after they passed away, I didn’t take my work so seriously anymore. And the stress level that comes with producing doesn’t faze me because I think, “We’re in the creative field. How fortunate are we to get to do what we do?” And it doesn’t even compare to the heartache and intense pain of losing loved ones.

I remember when projects were just utter chaos, falling apart at every level, and I’m just laser-focused on solutions. And I remember people saying things like, “Why are you so calm?” and “Why aren’t you crying about this and that disaster?” I would tell them, “I’m all cried out. I cried when my mother and my sister died. This is producing. We’re not crying in producing.” Of course I wanted to punch people in the throat, but that would be unprofessional of me. [LAUGHS]


I understand you mentor people. What other ways do you give back?

I mentor a filmmaker every semester at USC’s School of Cinematic Arts. I also started a nonprofit with Mimi Valdes, who is Pharrell Williams’ producing partner. It’s called Metta Collective, and our whole purpose is to educate storytellers and producers of color, because we’ve come to realize, and I’ve personally come to realize, that to have a seat at the table when you’re a producer means you’re making decisions that change the face of your production and evolve the industry. Whereas sometimes when you’re an actor or a director, you’re not in those rooms. So it’s crucial for producers’ voices to be in the rooms.

Forest and I are executive producing television as well now. Having a female voicea woman of colors voicereally changes the dynamics in the studio and network system. We express how critical it is to tell stories from authentic viewpoints, whether those come from producers, directors or writers. We also need to make sure we have inclusive crews, starting with heads of departments. Once we are conscious of these needs and make efforts to adopt them, it will lead to positive morale that gets reflected in the production and results in a great show. And thats what really makes us happy.

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